![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rusty_armourIf there's one thing I hate about the Sherlock fandom, it's the lack of support for writers on LJ. When I see a really good fic that has only received one comment, I can't help feeling disgusted. I could understand if it was a small fandom, but Sherlock is pretty popular. I just have to see the number of communities and writing challenges to know that. And, yes, I realize that we all lead busy lives, and I've certainly been guilty of reading a story and not commenting, but the lack of support in this particular fandom is really appalling. It seems as if it's every writer for herself, unless said writer is part of a clique or has a large network of friends. Thank fuck for A03. At least such writers might receive hits and kudos.
When I post what I hope will be my last Sherlock story (mostly because I'm supposed to be retired from fic writing), I might just post it on A03. I'm not sure if there's any point in posting it on LJ.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2011-09-29 06:20 pm (UTC)I'm supposed to be retired from fic writing Ha! May you never retire!
no subject
Date: 2011-09-29 07:28 pm (UTC)Well, that's what gets me. Can't you at least take the time to write a quick comment? It doesn't have to be an essay. A one sentence comment is better than nothing.
I'm supposed to be retired from fic writing Ha! May you never retire!
I'll probably never be completely retired, but I've really got to stop accepting challenges, requests, etc. and focus on what I should be focusing on. I'm working on what I truly hope will be the last fic for at least a few months. We'll see how well that works out. *g*
no subject
Date: 2011-09-29 06:39 pm (UTC)I have to admit I don't find AO3 much better though, some of the time. Hardly anyone comments over there, though as you say, at least you can see people are reading.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 02:50 am (UTC)I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head! This is the problem with bigger fandoms, and I'm sure it's the problem with Sherlock. And it's been this way for years on LJ, so it really shouldn't surprise me at all.
In my experience, small fandoms can even be better, because there's so little fic out there that everyone reads everything.
That's an excellent point. When you've only got so much fic to read, you're much less fussier about it. I was posting fic in a fairly small fandom before Sherlock, and a lot more people took the time and trouble to comment -- partly for the reason you've given, but also because there seemed to be a real community spirit in the fandom.
I have to admit I don't find AO3 much better though, some of the time. Hardly anyone comments over there, though as you say, at least you can see people are reading.
Oh, AO3 totally sucks for comments, but at least people sometimes leave kudos and you can see the number of hits you've received. Of course, the last time I looked, the most recent fic I'd posted there was only up to 21 hits. However, there are times when seeing such statistics can be a good thing. *g*
no subject
Date: 2011-09-29 07:17 pm (UTC)BTW I'll send you a dictionary so you can look up "retired". You keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think it means. ;)
no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 03:00 am (UTC)Well, okay. I can see how that could happen.
It would be nice if you could see the number of downloads. Or maybe you can and I just don't know it. Though you do at least see the count go up (though there is something depressing about a higher count and no feedback or kudos).
Yes, it would be nice if you could see the number of downloads. As far as I can tell, you can't view it as part of your current stats. It would be interesting to know how many people are downloading your stories -- or maybe it would just be depressing if the number is extremely low or non-existent. *g*
BTW I'll send you a dictionary so you can look up "retired". You keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think it means. ;)
What I think you need to do is send someone with the dictionary, so that they can club me around the head a few times. That might make the definition of "retirement" stick. *g*
no subject
Date: 2011-12-17 05:43 pm (UTC)I requested this a few months ago and IIRC it's on the list of enhancements being considered for AO3. If you're interested in seeing this, it couldn't hurt to request it here (http://archiveofourown.org/support)... the more people ask for it, the likelier it is to happen.
It would indeed be nice (or maybe the word is 'revealing'?) to see how many people are sufficiently committed to download one's fic... although if it's much higher than the number of people commenting/leaving kudos, it'll probably just leave me feeling grumpy! :-P
no subject
Date: 2011-12-18 01:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-29 08:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 03:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 12:24 am (UTC)I can write the fic, good ones even, but due to lack of any kind of support, I cannot continue to write it.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 03:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-10-01 12:29 am (UTC)Me, I slunk back into lurkerdom. Lack of support, or friends, kills the writer dead.
no subject
Date: 2011-10-01 03:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 05:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 03:26 pm (UTC)Well, I would certainly make an effort to read and comment if you posted any new fic here. And, yes, I know I'm behind with your previous stories. I'm going to try to get back on track with your Midsomer Murders fic as I was really enjoying your series of stories. :-)
I have a bunch of fics left on my 'to read' list and when I get round to reading them, I'll certainly make an effort to comment, knowing from my own experience just how much comments are appreciated.
Yeah, that's my problem. I actually have quite a large "to read" list. However, like you, I'm going to do my best to comment as I slowly catch up. It's great that your own appreciation of feedback you've received has encouraged you to comment yourself. I feel the exact same way, which is why I try to leave feedback when I can.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 08:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-30 03:30 pm (UTC)Exactly. I mean, I realize that writers who haven't gained popularity aren't going to receive tons of feedback, but some would be nice. Give them a frickin' reason to keep writing and/or posting their fic.
AO3 is a terrific place for feedback and encouragement. I post on both there and LJ, it's just good to have stuff archieved in different places. That's my take anyway.
I completely agree with you about AO3 and archiving your fic in different places. I know I've missed certain stories that were on LJ, only to find them later on A03.
no subject
Date: 2011-10-01 03:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-10-02 03:23 am (UTC)Just for the record, I think you do an excellent job providing feedback -- and really good feedback at that. :-)
no subject
Date: 2011-10-01 09:35 am (UTC)I wasn't sure what you meant by "every writer for herself", but I know my primary need is to write, though that means I have less time for reading other people's writing.
being in a couple of massive fandoms (Sherlock and now XMFC), I know I don't read more than a tiny fraction of what's out there. I don't even read all the fics and/or recs I would like to from people I know and trust, though that's my main way of reading now.
I need to get better at writing quick comments, I guess, though they sometimes don't feel like enough. I like the kudos option on AO3, both as a writer and as a reader.
no subject
Date: 2011-10-02 03:46 am (UTC)I don't blame you. I'll freely admit that I was in a bad place when I wrote this and definitely could have been more diplomatic instead of lashing out.
I wasn't sure what you meant by "every writer for herself", but I know my primary need is to write, though that means I have less time for reading other people's writing.
Well, it comes down to feedback and support again. I'm sorry but if you aren't part of a group, and you're not receiving much feedback, then you can feel very much alone and start to question your abilities. I mean, I realize that if you want to write, you're going to write, but it's possible to get discouraged and lose confidence if you start questioning whether your work is any good. Okay, maybe it hasn't happened to you, but I've certainly had that experience.
I know I probably seem sickeningly passionate and melodramatic, but I ran a fanfic archive for years and helped foster quite a few writers. I've seen what new writers go through and how hard it can be when they have no support.
being in a couple of massive fandoms (Sherlock and now XMFC), I know I don't read more than a tiny fraction of what's out there. I don't even read all the fics and/or recs I would like to from people I know and trust, though that's my main way of reading now.
Believe me, I understand that. I'm only able to read a tiny fraction of what's out there myself. However, I know from my own experience (e.g. checking out the Stats/MyGuests feature on LJ like a stalker) that quite a few people will read a story, while only a couple can be bothered to leave comments. And I'll say, once again, that I don't expect people to leave comments for everything they read, but I think that more effort can be made when it's obvious that a writer isn't receiving the kind of feedback she might deserve -- in some cases any.
I need to get better at writing quick comments, I guess, though they sometimes don't feel like enough. I like the kudos option on AO3, both as a writer and as a reader.
I actually think you do a wonderful job of leaving feedback. I've seen comments from you time and time again when reading fic. But, then, I don't think you're the type of reader who's the problem. I wish all readers were as diligent as you.
no subject
Date: 2011-10-02 09:45 am (UTC)I've never used the Stats/My Guests feature on LJ, though I did look at the stats when I was posting on ff.net. I already knew before I started, from a friend who's studied these things, that the ratio of readers to commenters is very high in fanfiction. but I know I found it difficult on LJ at first, when I thought nobody was reading me or else that they didn't like what I was doing. at that point I was very grateful for ff.net, where I did get feedback, although it was still a tiny proportion of readers who commented. I think I would have kept going even without feedback then, because my need to write (after almost three decades of miserable not-writing) was so strong. but it still makes me happy when I get comments, and I get a bit wistful about the stories that seem to fall through the cracks or off the radar. so it's not that I think this doesn't matter.
I suppose one problem with stats is that it doesn't really tell you who has read a story, as opposed to viewing a page. I know I've sometimes started reading something and thought I needed to come back to it later because I wasn't concentrating or didn't have time to finish it. so when I see the hit count on AO3 I don't know what that means.
no subject
Date: 2011-10-03 12:55 am (UTC)Yes, much better. Thanks for asking,
I've never used the Stats/My Guests feature on LJ, though I did look at the stats when I was posting on ff.net.
Ah, yes. I remember those days. I used to check my stats on ff.net all the time. Now I conduct obsessive checks on AO3 instead. *g*
I already knew before I started, from a friend who's studied these things, that the ratio of readers to commenters is very high in fanfiction. but I know I found it difficult on LJ at first, when I thought nobody was reading me or else that they didn't like what I was doing. at that point I was very grateful for ff.net, where I did get feedback, although it was still a tiny proportion of readers who commented.
A friend of mine heard that you should multiply the number of comments you receive by ten to figure out how many people are reading your stories. This was quite a while ago, and I'm not sure how accurate that statistic is now, but I'm guessing it still holds some truth. In any case, it is a struggle when you post on LJ and receive little or no comments. I think you start questioning the quality of the story no matter how confident you are. It's great that you were receiving feedback on ff.net.
I think I would have kept going even without feedback then, because my need to write (after almost three decades of miserable not-writing) was so strong.
I know a writer should write for herself first and foremost, and that it shouldn't be about feedback, but even driven writers can get discouraged if they begin doubting their abilities. Such writers might not put down their pens altogether, but they may stop writing for a while. Or, in the case of one writer I know, they might keep writing but stop sharing all of their stories. Actually, this scenario isn't a bad one as that writer I know is still gaining happiness and fulfillment from the writing process. However, I can't help being selfish and think of the fic that isn't being posted. *g*
but it still makes me happy when I get comments, and I get a bit wistful about the stories that seem to fall through the cracks or off the radar. so it's not that I think this doesn't matter.
I think it's only natural to want some acknowledgement and praise for our work. In the case of writing, you want your babies to be liked by someone.
I suppose one problem with stats is that it doesn't really tell you who has read a story, as opposed to viewing a page. I know I've sometimes started reading something and thought I needed to come back to it later because I wasn't concentrating or didn't have time to finish it. so when I see the hit count on AO3 I don't know what that means.
You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that the people who clicked on your story actually read it. I try to keep that in mind when I see a hit count. And maybe I'm being an optimist for once, but I think it's safe to assume that at least a portion of the people who clicked on the link read the story. *g*
no subject
Date: 2011-10-13 12:08 pm (UTC)Are we suppose to be measuring our success in part by how many times we have been bookmarked on Pinboard for example? I signed up and I'm just slowly inching my way into it. I do love the Pinboard dude. Here's his entry explaining us to his regular users after the massive fandom jump from the Delicious ship:
http://blog.pinboard.in/2011/10/the_fans_are_all_right/
no subject
Date: 2011-10-13 08:53 pm (UTC)That's an excellent point,
The stats for feedback has always sucked, but I totally agree that they appear to have worsened.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this trend. I was beginning to wonder if maybe I was imagining it and had overreacted. Well, okay, I totally did overreact, but at least my observations weren't entirely wrong. *g*
I suspect that we might be missing some of the new more passive forms of it.
Yes, that's entirely possible, which is strangely comforting in a way.
Are we suppose to be measuring our success in part by how many times we have been bookmarked on Pinboard for example? I signed up and I'm just slowly inching my way into it. I do love the Pinboard dude. Here's his entry explaining us to his regular users after the massive fandom jump from the Delicious ship:
http://blog.pinboard.in/2011/10/the_fans_are_all_right/ (http://blog.pinboard.in/2011/10/the_fans_are_all_right/)
Maybe this is how we'll measure our success in the future. I have to sign up myself as I miss the ficcy goodness that used to come from Delicious.
BTW, I keep meaning to tell you how much fun both my family and I had with the iPod this weekend. It was a really big hit. :-D I have to confess that I've barely had a chance to glance at it since Thanksgiving, but I hope to do a bit more experimenting soon.
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 01:48 am (UTC)Some of my Sherlock friends theorise that feedback is poor because there are so many fics competing for attention. In my own fandom, that's not an issue; we're pretty tiny. Yet the problem exists there too, especially for writers who (like me) are drawn to writing genres or characters or pairings that aren't the OTP.
I think you're dead on with your comments, but would like to offer a couple of other ideas:
1 - the Tumblrisation of fandom. I know many fans who regard Tumblr as their primary home. It grabs your attention instantly, it's eminently browsable, it's image-heavy, and above all -- it offers instant gratification. You can 'reblog' without commenting, and most rebloggers do. The distinction between consumption and participation is often eroded to the point of non-existence.
Last week someone on a chatroom rebuked a fanfic author for wanting 'credit' for her work, saying that in the Tumblr world, everyone owns the content by sharing it, and that it's a whole different (implied: better) way of looking at things. The Tumblr advocate seemed to be arguing that she didn't owe feedback to anyone (and judging by how little I've seen her leave on LJ, I think she was being consistent on this point).
So, I wonder whether/how Tumblr culture is affecting people's participation on more traditional fanfic forums: how much they read fanfic, what sort they read (for example, whether there's a drift towards preferring shorter, bite-sized fics), and whether Tumblr-leaning fans are generally less likely to leave feedback on LJ or AO3.
2 - the economy. I know many, many people who are feeling ground down by the recession. Chronic job-hunting (for those who are unemployed), increasingly stressful and demanding jobs (for those who are lucky enough to be in work) -- these affect how we behave in our free time. There are also quite a few younger artists and fic writers who are struggling with their university studies *and* finances simultaneously. I think, and it's just a theory, that people who are stressed and unhappy are less likely to leave feedback than people who are rested and contented. Limited leisure time and energy may contribute to a grab-and-run habit.
And I had a third point, but now I forget what it was. Probably something glib about 'download culture' and how people increasingly feel that they don't owe anyone for something they can get for free. But then I'll sound like an old coot :-)
You know, sometimes I think we need a forum to talk safely and anonymously about this subject. The one time I mentioned feeling discouraged on my LJ, I quickly learned that it's virtually taboo to admit it... even though most of us, I suspect, feel that way underneath.
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 05:56 pm (UTC)I definitely think that the economy and stress levels play a role in the lack of feedback. I'm massively behind with reading fic, never mind leaving feedback. And often I'm tired and struggling to string together sentences when I finally do find time to sit down and read something. However, if I like the story in question, I usually make an effort to go back later and leave some comments.
I don't think you sound like an old coot about the "download culture". I mean, I know how easy it is to download a story from somewhere like AO3 and then forget to go back to leave comments or kudos. I downloaded two Pirate of the Caribbean stories recently and still need to return to leave kudos, if nothing else. Well, I think it's one thing to forget and another thing to make the decision not to leave any kind of feedback because you don't feel you owe the writers anything.
Okay, last thing. A forum where people could discuss this topic safely and anonymously would be fabulous. I honestly couldn't care if it's virtually taboo to admit feeling discouraged about feedback (or lack thereof). I'd like to know who made that determination because it wouldn't surprise me if it was someone who was (once again) looking for an excuse not to leave feedback. *g*
no subject
Date: 2011-11-08 04:24 am (UTC)Basically, though, the feedback question seems to boil down to a matter of good manners. Is the reader willing to take a few moments to be considerate and let the writer know when they've enjoyed the fic? I do think that even if the reader doesn't feel actual gratitude, they should at least recognise that it's in their own self-interest to encourage writers whose fics they love. I've seen several excellent writers stop writing because there just wasn't much evidence that anyone was reading their work. *shrugs*
no subject
Date: 2011-11-08 05:53 pm (UTC)The feedback question does boil down to good manners. While I don't expect readers to provide feedback for everything they read, I don't think it would kill them to take a bit of time to comment on stories they've really enjoyed. If nothing else, it encourages writers to keep writing -- something else you pointed out. Like you, I know writers who stopped writing because they weren't seeing any evidence that anyone was reading their work. I know that if a writer wants to write, she'll write. However, there's no guarantee that she'll continue to post what she writes (or that she'll continue writing fanfic at all) if she feels her work isn't appreciated.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-27 07:54 pm (UTC)Of course that wouldn't work for a great big fandom like this one, but Sherlockdom does seem to go to the other extreme. The popularity or otherwise of certain fics is always going to be a matter of luck and cliques as much as merit, but I was quite encouraged to find that some of the fics that are lauded by all fandom are actually really good. This makes me a bit less annoyed about the general dearth of feedback than might otherwise be the case.
IRL I work as a book editor so I know very well that quality and the public taste do not always coincide. People will only invest whatever it is (money for printed books, time for fanfic) in a longer piece if they are reasonably certain that it will contain something they want, so I think case/gentle romance fics that aren't advertising a shiny USP can lose out, unless they get recced loudly.
On the whole, I think culture in general is groaning under an embarrassment of riches. There is no need to cherish authors, as there are so many of us, and if one gets discouraged five more will pop up. This is rather a grim truth, particularly for those of us who sit around obsessively crafting sentences rather than merrily pumping out wordcount, but it's affecting every genre and outlet. It's possible that in the future people who are interested in technical quality will find new ways of filtering the wealth of material ('gatekeepers' as we call them in publishing - for example, a retailer's decision about which books to put on the shelves is 'gatekeeping') but the internet is still too recent and messy a phenomenon for anything like this to have set in.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-28 05:06 pm (UTC)Hi,
Of course that wouldn't work for a great big fandom like this one, but Sherlockdom does seem to go to the other extreme. The popularity or otherwise of certain fics is always going to be a matter of luck and cliques as much as merit, but I was quite encouraged to find that some of the fics that are lauded by all fandom are actually really good. This makes me a bit less annoyed about the general dearth of feedback than might otherwise be the case.
I definitely agree that most of the stories that gain popularity, and are showered with praise, have earned it. There are some incredibly talented writers who are churning out amazing fic. I just feel bad for the writers who are just starting out and not receiving the kind of feedback that might encourage them to continue contributing to the fandom.
IRL I work as a book editor so I know very well that quality and the public taste do not always coincide. People will only invest whatever it is (money for printed books, time for fanfic) in a longer piece if they are reasonably certain that it will contain something they want, so I think case/gentle romance fics that aren't advertising a shiny USP can lose out, unless they get recced loudly.
Excellent point. People are going to be drawn towards certain pairings and genres within the fandom, unless a story is recced loudly or the writer in question has gained a following.
On the whole, I think culture in general is groaning under an embarrassment of riches. There is no need to cherish authors, as there are so many of us, and if one gets discouraged five more will pop up. This is rather a grim truth, particularly for those of us who sit around obsessively crafting sentences rather than merrily pumping out wordcount, but it's affecting every genre and outlet. It's possible that in the future people who are interested in technical quality will find new ways of filtering the wealth of material ('gatekeepers' as we call them in publishing - for example, a retailer's decision about which books to put on the shelves is 'gatekeeping') but the internet is still too recent and messy a phenomenon for anything like this to have set in.
Another excellent point, especially as I think that's what's happening in this fandom. There's an embarrassment of riches, and readers know that if one writer vanishes another will appear to take her place. You may have read
no subject
Date: 2011-12-30 02:56 pm (UTC)I certainly can't keep up with all the fic in fandom. A have a huge backlog, having only turned up two months ago. There are certain authors who I jump at reading, though, and I try to click on a certain amount of more or less random stuff, to take a sample.
Tumblr rather depresses me, though I'm not above a five-second lol at things which are actually funny. I have yet to even learn to use it properly. I'd better do that.
I was particularly struck by your point about how fledgeling writers starve for lack of feedback though. To be perfectly honest I was being rather self-centred and thinking about reasonably technically proficient writers who still have trouble getting themselves read (i.e. total self-projection!) without properly considering what if I was at the office I would call 'emerging writers'.
In fact I tend only to leave feedback when I can be highly positive, on the assumption that people who aren't passionately invested in their writing will be discouraged by concrit, and there is no point picking apart someone who is just having a bit of fun.
But actually there is no reason to automatically assume that imperfect skill means lack of investment, because everyone starts somewhere. So looked at from a social utilitarian perspective, I should in fact be leaving concrit on just those slightly-flawed-but-far-from-hopeless fics.
Hm... deep thought required...
no subject
Date: 2011-12-30 07:00 pm (UTC)I know there has been at least one or two occasions when I pointed out a mistake, but I think I sent the writer a private message.